Are you tired of scrolling through your Instagram feed, wondering how all these influencers got their foot in the door? Well, it’s time to stop double-tapping and start making waves in the world of talent representation! Becoming an influencer talent agent might seem like a daunting task, but fear not – we’ve got you covered.
How do I become an Influencer Talent Manager?
In this comprehensive guide about how to become an influencer talent agent,, we’ll take you on a journey from clueless scroller to savvy power broker. So grab your laptop to take notes (or pen and paper if you’re old school like me!) and get ready to transform your social media addiction into a thriving career with our first hand look and oh-so-smart guide on how to become an influencer talent agent.
At its core, influencer talent management is about nurturing and representing social media influencers and content creators. Talent managers serve as the bridge between these influential individuals and the brands seeking to collaborate with them. This role involves a multitude of responsibilities, from scouting emerging talent to negotiating contracts and ensuring the success of influencer-brand partnerships.
An influencer talent manager wears many hats: part-agent, part-mentor, part-negotiator, and part-strategist. And let’s be honest, we’re also a therapist, cheerleader, half our client’s brain and their #1 hypewoman (wish I could have one of me!) We work tirelessly behind the scenes to help influencers thrive in a competitive and rapidly changing landscape. This is NOT a 9-5, Monday – Friday job.
My client Jessica as a travel influencer and content creator is often on the road over weekends and holidays on client projects. Guess who is her first call whenever there’s any issue? Me. A client is doing a photo shoot on a Saturday and they’re having issues because now it’s raining. Guess who is her first call? Still me. No rest for the weary over here!
When I first got into Talent Management back in 2016, 2017, not only were Influencers not as ubiquitous as they are now, nor were talent managers. But now it seems like we’re everywhere doesn’t it?
Whenever I do mentoring or coaching sessions, I often have aspiring young people book sessions with me to ask “how do I become an influencer talent agent?” They want to know my journey, where I learned what I needed to know & how I built my roster. My hope with this article is to fill in the void and lay out what steps I recommend you take.
What is an Influencer Talent Manager?
An influencer talent manager serves as the guiding force behind an influencer’s career, a very key, strategic team member for an Influencer. Think of us as the maestros of the influencer symphony, orchestrating every note to create a harmonious and successful journey for both the influencer and the brands they work with.
What does an influencer talent agent do?
At its core, an influencer talent manager:
Represents the Influencer: Talent managers are the voice and advocate for influencers, ensuring our talent secures the best opportunities and partnerships that align with their brand image and values.
Negotiates and Secures Deals: We are skilled negotiators, securing lucrative collaborations and contracts while protecting the interests of the influencers we represent.
Provide Strategic Guidance: Talent managers offer valuable insights and strategic advice on content creation, audience engagement, and brand partnerships. We help influencers make informed decisions based on what we hear is happening in the industry, feedback from our agency connections and chatting with other Talent Managers.
Project / Logistics Management : A lot of us see a project thru from negotiation and agreement signing to sending over the invoice & everything in between. This allows the influencer to focus on content creation.
Manage Brand Relationships: We act as the liaison between the influencer and the brands, ensuring all parties are on the same page, that campaigns run smoothly & our clients remain top of mind for future campaigns.
What are the day to day responsibilities of an influencer talent manager?
The big question people always want to know right? And of course, my classic response is, there is no typical day. Honestly, I kinda like it. I need that variety in my days and weeks.
A few things influencer talent managers do daily and weekly that are key elements of our jobs :
Contract Negotiation: Negotiating terms, rates, and deliverables for influencer partnerships.
Content Strategy: Collaborating with influencers to develop engaging and authentic content strategies.
Networking: Building relationships with industry professionals, influencers, and brands to create opportunities. To me, a key responsibility of being an Influencer Talent Manager is to ensure my clients are kept top of mind for any future campaigns. So many people never stay in touch with the agency reps who hired them on past campaigns and that’s a huge miss in my book.
Crisis Management: Handling any unforeseen issues that pop up because of a campaign (product arrives damaged, late, or brand changes the concept midway after it’s all been approved), a talent’s content (a post goes up that the brand doesn’t like but is outside the scope of our agreement so they get their feathers ruffled and I have to deal with it) or negotiation.
Financial Management: Tracking down late payments. An unfortunately big chunk of how my time is spent at times.
Other things talent managers do if they’re looking to build out their roster is also scouting talent, which means identifying potential influencers with unique content and marketable appeal.
Still curious to learn more? I wrote this article for you about what does an Influencer talent manager do?
What qualifications do I need to be a talent manager?
Becoming a successful influencer talent manager demands a unique set of skills and qualities. Do you have what it takes?
Everyone thinks that the top skill for a great influencer talent manager is your negotiation skills. I think it’s something else. I think you have to be great at asking for things.
Be it more money, a later due date, a change in payment terms, the final executed agreement, status on a late invoice, less deliverables, a shorter exclusivity period or an update in project status, I can’t stress enough how I’m always asking for things. Oftentimes more than one thing at a time as well. It’s a skill to manage & know how to prioritize your asks.
Of course, the ability to negotiate effectively is a cornerstone of talent management. Talent managers need to secure the best deals for their influencers, which demands strong negotiation skills to ensure both parties benefit.
Clear and concise communication is paramount & another seemingly obvious skill. Talent managers need to convey creative ideas, expectations, and terms to both influencers and brands. Effective communication helps prevent misunderstandings and ensures successful collaborations.
Resilience is another very important, relevant skill to have to be a successful influencer talent manager. The more you practice it, the better you’ll be at it. I often equate talent management to the book series, “Choose your own adventure.” Remember those? I never ever know what situation will unfold when a brand reaches out with an inquiry for a collaboration with my client.
Nothing ever goes as expected, which doesn’t always mean it goes badly, it just never goes as expected. As an influencer talent manager, you have got to think quickly and creatively on your feet, take nothing personally & find solutions for the greater good.
Oftentimes you have to put personal grievances aside as it’s never about us. Resilience is one of those things that you only get better at with practice.
Building and maintaining a strong network of contacts is crucial. Talent managers need to connect with influencers, brands, and fellow professionals to create opportunities and navigate the industry successfully.
While a majority of inbound leads go directly to clients, those of us talent managers that have been in this game for awhile have built up relationships with agencies and brands. This means that inquiries will come direct to us. I put my people skills to use daily for either navigating tricky situations, finding the campaign lead and connecting other talent managers with campaign opportunities when they come my way.
The final two skills that I think are super important for a successful Influencer talent manager to be good at are organization and creativity.
Managing multiple influencers and brand collaboration projects simultaneously requires excellent organizational skills & great attention to detail. Talent managers must handle logistics, schedules, contracts, and more, ensuring nothing falls through the cracks.
Creativity is important when crafting unique and engaging collaborations. Not because we are also the content creators, but because creative, out of the box solutions are often require to solve problems. Sometimes I have to rely on my creativity with my talent to interpret a brief and how to bring a campaign to life in a way that integrates with my talent’s brand.
Now let’s talk about how to either develop those skills or improve them. Past job experience didn’t teach you these things? Got it.
Here’s 4 things you can do, research and practice to build these skills.
#1 Learn from Others: Seek out mentors or network with experienced talent managers who can offer guidance and insights into the industry. Learn from their experiences and take note of their strategies. Pay to do coaching sessions with us. Take advantage of a free mentor session with a membership. Ask to shadow one for a day (honestly this is super hard because 99.9% of our world is digital but get creative about it.) Read this book by Brittney Hennessy, Influencer. Listen to podcast episodes of Talent Mangers. All of mine are listed on my press page.
Follow us on social media, here’s my Instagram, and go to conferences and events where we speak. Take a job in house at a talent agency to learn the ropes. It’s not a trivial thing to represent talent. That person is putting their business baby into your hands. Don’t do them a disservice by not doing your due diligence to learn the industry and understand key terms in an agreement.
Pro tip : Don’t ask to pick our brain and don’t ask to do it for free. We’ve all worked really damn hard to get to where we are and the advice we offer is invaluable.
#2 – Continual Education: Consider enrolling in courses or webinars related to negotiation, communication, and influencer marketing. Many online platforms offer courses tailored to digital marketing and management. I often host webinars along with other talent managers. All of this info is in my newsletter, on my Linkedin and Instagram. Brittany Ratelle often does workshops about the legal side of Influencer Marketing.
#3 – Practice Scenario-Based Exercises: Simulate real-life scenarios in which you negotiate contracts or deal with crisis management. This can help you refine your negotiation and decision-making skills. Yes, I’m serious. Practice. It will be weird at first but guaranteed to pay off.
#4 – Networking: Attend industry events, both virtual and in-person, to build relationships with other professionals. Take notes. Ask insightful questions. Follow up with us afterwards. Connect on social media to stay posted on opportunities.
Is there a way to get a degree in Influencer Marketing? Great question. As of the time of writing this, I did a bit of googling and honestly, nothing worthwhile popped up to share. And nothing that was talent manager specific. There are more and more program popping up every semester so it’s definitely worth keeping an eye out for something.
I see a bunch of semester classes about influencer marketing but as this is such a quickly changing industry, I’d be curious how they stay up to date on trends and what’s actually happening in the industry.
Your best bet to learn about opportunities & make connections is through networking, truly the lifeblood of the influencer marketing industry.
Here’s why it’s crucial:
Opportunities: Networking opens doors to collaborations, partnerships, and job opportunities. There’s no other way around it. You’ve got to get out and hustle up conversations and connections.
As you build a network, it will provide a support system where you can seek advice, share insights & opportunities, and figure things out.
Get out from behind your laptop, attend industry events, engage with influencers on social media, and join online communities and forums related to influencer marketing. Networking is an ongoing effort that can significantly accelerate your journey to becoming a successful influencer talent manager. Jump right on into the deep end and figure out how to swim!
Now let’s talk about your influencer roster.
How to Start an Influencer Marketing Agency
As much networking as you can do to learn the craft of talent management, you need talent, aka a roster to have an influencer management agency.
Let’s talk about how and where to find talent. I LOVE talking about the importance of onboarding talent and building out your roster.
Talent scouting and management are fundamental aspects of the influencer talent manager’s role. Let’s explore how to identify potential influencers, the process of talent scouting, onboarding, and contract negotiation, as well as tips for building strong relationships with influencers.
Identifying potential influencers is the first step in talent management. Here’s how & where to spot talent:
Online Presence: Start with what’s right in front of you. Who do you already follow, engage with and like on social media platforms? Whose recipes do you love to make? Whose newsletter do you read weekly?
Figure out what type of content you enjoy consuming and therefore who would be a good fit for you and who wouldn’t. For example, my roster is heavy on food creators, lifestyle with a focus on health and travel – all things I love.
It’s also where I have a lot of my agency contacts for campaigns. Conversely I wouldn’t be a good fit for anyone who focuses on parenting or fashion content.
Decide what matters to you about the person’s following count as a metric – some people only want micro or nano influencers, which means under 10K followers. For me, I don’t look at that so much as asking how much the Influencer has done in brand partnerships in the past 12 months.
Because agents earn our money as a commission from closed business deals, I’m more concerned about how established the creator already is vs never doing any partnerships but has a large following. I also look at their engagement, studying how many comments and likes they receive on average for their posts.
As you build out your roster, it’s also worth keeping an eye on what your roster looks like. As in, if you’re building a small, boutique influencer talent management agency like mine, it’s in my best interest to keep similar profiles to a minimum.
In other words, I won’t bring on more than ~ 3 creators that are very similar. I do currently have 3 Latina food creators but their content and profiles all cater to a different audience.
You also want to look out for how consistent people are with creating and sharing content. For me, I want to partner with creators who are posting often and not every 6 weeks or so.
Say someone went viral and now has a lot of followers? That’s not a profile that’s of interest to me because it doesn’t convey that they know how to do a brand collaboration.
There are some talent managers who are open to doing a lot of hand holding thru brand partnerships. I am not one of those people. I want my creators to already be very well versed in how to partner with brands.
Once you’ve identified potential partners, you need to find out if they have management already. And the only way you’ll know that is if you ask. Remember how I wrote earlier you have to get good at asking?
Better yet, get on the influencer’s radar by engaging with their content! Share it, comment on it & and at a minimum, like it. Best if they already know who you are when you reach out. This way when you reach out to ask if they have a manager, you aren’t a total stranger.
You will do A LOT of outreach when first building your roster, to confirm your first client or two or three. Hopefully after time you build by word of mouth, as I built my agency, but it takes time. And persistence. And resilience.
Now, assuming you’ve done a lot of the above and you’ve got a creator who is interested in partnering with you, to have you as their manager. Congrats! Let’s talk about the next step of onboarding talent.
I spend a lot of time in the interview stage of building my roster. Some people do 90 day trials with new talent. I don’t and my reasoning is that it takes a while, sometimes 90 days or more to build a runway and get in the groove with new talent.
I’d much prefer to spend time on the front end of getting to know someone and them to be familiar with my agency instead of agreeing to a trial run.
I do a lot of phone calls and zoom sessions, getting to know them personally, understanding how they work, their past brand collaboration history, how they approach this industry, how they work, & asking about what programs and systems they have in place to run their business.
Yes, it’s important to me that they are already an established influencer but I also want to get to know them as a human. My influencer talent management agency is like a familia. My roster and I are super close and dear friends to me.
It’s important to me, if I’m inviting someone into our agency familia that their vibe aligns with how we operate. I’ve said no to people who I could’ve made me a lot of money because their mindset and vibe didn’t work for me.
I won’t let one bad apple spoil our bunch.
I spend a lot of time in that initial interviewing stage talking about money. I want to ensure the person I partner with is open to talking about money, to see how risk averse they are or not and generally how much freedom and trust will they grant me to do my job.
I also ask, when the time comes, that they speak with a handful of people on my roster. I want them to have a full 360 perspective of what it’s like to have me as their agent.
For me, I also pay attention to how people show up from day one of when I reach out to them. How they do business is how they do business. If someone is late to a call with me, or gets the time/date wrong or calls me the wrong name or spells my name incorrectly, that’s a red flag. It means that’s how they’ll show up in a brand partnership, which is an absolute no for me.
I often hear other talent managers complaining about how their talent is uncommunicative, goes MIA or turns in content on time. Not mine. Never. There’s a reason for that.
Here’s just some of the questions I ask when I’m interviewing prospective talent :
- What are your expectations of having a manager on your team?
- Tell me how the past 12 months of brand collaborations have been for you
- How many other talent managers are you speaking with?
- Tell me more about how you work
- What’s important to you in the relationship with your talent manager
- What can I expect of you?
- Tell me more about your communication style
- Walk me thru your process of currently managing inbound inquiries
- What do you track? What systems do you currently use?
- What do you know about my agency and how I operate?
Once you’re finally ready to make an offer to an Influencer, to bring them onto your roster, the next step is your official onboarding process.
Here’s what I do after making that offer:
- I get their official business name and address for my agreement.
- I ask about all their additional streams of income (referred to as carveouts on the agreements) so that I can make a note I don’t earn commission from them.
- I send over their agreement and invoice for first 30 days.
- Once their invoice and agreement are signed, I send a welcome email. In that email are links to a google form for them to fill out with pertinent info, links to a spreadsheet to fill out all their past brand deals and another spreadsheet to fill out recent inbound requests. I also do attach a proper, branded welcome letter outlining how I work, expectations etc.
- I also include a link to a google drive or dropbox folder where they can share photos, links to past projects and their bio. I use that to create their talent bio page on my website.
I then get (2-3) hour long calls on the calendar over the next few weeks. It’s important for us to jump right in and tackle any pending inquiry and for me to start doing outreach on their behalf. I also the time for us to continue getting to know one another. Sometimes I have an agenda, other times I don’t. There’s always things to discuss.
That’s my onboarding process. Figure out yours. I do refine mine every so often when I learn or realize new relevant things. I make sure to keep it fresh and up to date.
If at some point throughout the process, I realize we’re not a good fit, for whatever reason, I’ve got a list of other managers to refer prospective talent to. As you grow your roster and mark in our industry, you too will connect with other talent managers.
I highly recommend you cultivate and nurture them – those relationships will prove to be an invaluable resource to you.
Collaborating with other talent managers can yield several advantages:
Shared Knowledge: Collaboration allows you to pool knowledge and insights, helping each other navigate challenges and stay informed about industry changes.
Resource Sharing: Sharing resources, whether in terms of tools, contacts, or information, can save time and effort, benefiting all parties involved. Nothing is better than having another talent manager make an intro for me to an agency on behalf of a client or me for them. Love that support! We absolutely believe in collaboration over competition.
Peer Support: Talent managers often face similar challenges. Building a collaborative network of managers provides a peer support system, where we can exchange advice and encouragement. It always helps to reach out to others when I’m stuck on something or having a rough, slow period of campaign activity. Their support means the world to me….and has truly kept me going.
Professional Growth: Collaborating with other managers provides opportunities for professional growth and exposure. It can lead to a broader clientele and more significant projects. My network and I are always keeping our eyes out for each other be it for talent or campaigns.
Below are a few other talent managers and their top Influencer Talent Agencies I highly recommend and love having in my world.
Jenny Dinh Safransky is the Founder of JDS Projects – a talent management agency that represents a diverse roster of female creators and experts who are making community impact.
Prior to starting JDS Projects in 2020, Jenny led multi-million dollar brand partnerships for the GRAMMYs. She is now responsible for securing major brand deals for her roster of chefs, podcasters, media personalities and wellness experts with brands including TJMaxx, Athleta, Gaiam, ComcastRISE, US Bank and more. She champions her talent as a negotiator, coach, and advocate.
Elle Queen of Queen Consulting brings a unique perspective to talent management; prior to starting her business, she spent five years working in the natural and organic food industry in social media and digital marketing. She was often the one hiring influencers to create content, so she truly understands both sides of the table and brings that perspective to her day-to-day work now, where she acts as a true extension of each creator’s business and team.
Molly Benton is the Executive Vice President at CookIt Media. Her role is to lead a team of Talent Managers, find new talent to join CookIt’s roster of 30+ creators and strategically help their growth in the ever-evolving business of influencer marketing. Prior to joining CookIt Media, Molly worked in PR for 8 years, managing press campaigns for CPG brands such as Caulipower, KeVita and Nature’s Path. She also worked in hospitality PR launching national campaigns for Michelin Star brands such as Tim Ho Wan and chain restaurant, The Habit Burger. Working in food media for 9+ years, Molly brings deep expertise to her niche of managing food and beverage creators. She knows the difference between a tablespoon and teaspoon, or how too much baking powder can change the taste of a really good chocolate chip cookie.
Cara Braude of Cara Mgmt is one of the one of the first Boutique Talent Agencies to have established themselves in the US. They have represented some of the most coveted Influencer and Content Creators since 2018 and serve as an in-house extension to each of their creators. Their core mission is to nurture and foster their Talent needs, help them deliver inspiring and unique content and build long-lasting relationships with Brand partners.
Molly Tracy is a former influencer marketing strategist turned talent manager and agency founder of VRAI – a talent management agency for multicultural female content creators in the motherhood, wellness and lifestyle space. Bringing over 10 years of experience to the table, I help my influencers navigate the business side of the multi-media landscape, advising on growth strategy and securing brand partnerships to expand their portfolio.
How much do managers of influencers make?
The industry standard is 10-20%. I earn 20% of all the brand deals I close for my talent. I also have a retainer in place for the first 90 days of our partnership as I’m spending a lot of time helping them get a bit more organized. It’s also a window of time when I put their name out to my network to see about any opportunities. It’s incredibly important to know your business model, what you’ll charge and how you will earn money. I wrote this article “how much does an influencer agent cost : A comprehensive guide.”
Helpful Software and Tools for Talent Management
There are a few platforms I use daily to help me with talent management.
Contract Management Software: Tools like DocuSign and HelloSign make it easier to create, store, and manage influencer contracts and agreements. I use Hellosign as my agreement signing tool.
Project Management Tools: Platforms such as Trello, Asana, and Monday.com are beneficial for managing influencer campaigns and projects. I use Trello for my project management and used to use ASANA.
Social Media Management Tools: Software like Hootsuite and Buffer help you schedule posts, manage multiple social media accounts, and track engagement. I’m currently using Tailwind to schedule my own content on Instagram.
Customer Relationship Management (CRM) Software: Highly recommend you have an CRM to keep on top of all the agency contacts you’ll gather. Platforms like HubSpot and Salesforce can help you organize and manage influencer and brand relationships. Currently, I’m using Hubspot.
Email Marketing Software: Tools like Mailchimp and ConvertKit are helpful for reaching out to influencers and managing email campaigns. Most talent managers I know don’t have a newsletter. I do and am currently using FloDesk.
Content Creation and Editing Tools: Software like Canva, Adobe Creative Cloud, and Grammarly can assist with content creation and editing. I’m currently using Canva & Pic Monkey.
Pitfalls and challenges to Influencer talent management
Unfortunately for all the talk there is about great talent managers, all it takes is one bad apple to spoil the bunch. Don’t be that person! A lot of us work really hard, to do our best for our clients, only to have one ding dong turn everyone off of working with a talent manager. If I find out it’s you, I’m coming for ya!
In the dynamic and ever-evolving field of influencer talent management, challenges and pitfalls are inevitable.
From what I’ve seen, learned and experienced, talent management missteps come down to two things : miscommunication and missed expectations.
You wouldn’t believe the number of random strangers on the internet who reach out to me, asking (sometimes assuming) if I can be their manager. They’ve done zero research. Know nothing about me nor how I operate yet they’re ready to hand over their business. It never ceases to amaze me.
Conversely, I’ve heard many stories about Influencer talent management agencies who will random reach out to creators, telling them they want to be their manager, including an agreement to sign, without ever having talked or discussed anything.
What the hell?! I can tell you that is NOT a set up for success, for anyone.
Know your talent : Common Challenges Faced by Talent Managers
Finding the Right Fit: Identifying influencers who align with your agency values and resonate with how you do business be challenging. Do they have a profile that makes sense for you? Are you setting both of you up for success? Do your due diligence to find out.
Content Authenticity & Consistency: This depends on what type of creator you’re looking to partner with but for me, I want my creators to consistently creating content and to have a lot of brand collab experience under their belt. I’m not here to make you an influencer but to elevate your already sucessful game.
Effective Communication: I want my roster to be responsive to me whenever I reach out – either for content due dates, asking if they’re interested in something or generally just checking in. I wouldn’t want them to miss a campaign opportunity because they took forever to get back to me. Conversely, there’s nothing more I hate than being a nag so I will NOT nag them to get content in on time. They need to be on it.
Trust : I need trust to be at the forefront of my relationship with my creators. It goes both ways. They need to trust I’m doing my best on their behalf, while I also need to trust they’re keeping me in the loop on opportunities. I’ve parted ways with creators with whom weren’t up front with me about opportunities or others who wanted to micro manage me.
My solutions for overcoming these challenges?
Finding the Right Fit: Invest time in researching, researching and researching the Influencers you’re interested in working with. It’s like any relationship. It’s much easier to break up after a couple dates than get business divorced. You feel me? It’s absolutely worth it as well to spend a lot of time firming up what type of agency you want to build, what type of influencer manager you want to be. If you don’t know who you want to work with, how will you know when you’ve found the right influencer for your roster?
Effective Communication: Invest in improving your communication skills. Active listening, concise and clear language, and prompt responses can alleviate communication issues. When in doubt, ask a question. If something’s super important to not get messed up, repeat yourself. Mention it multiple times.
Learning from the challenges faced by talent managers and the lessons shared by others in the field can help you proactively navigate potential pitfalls and build a successful career in influencer talent management. Embracing these lessons can lead to smoother partnerships, increased brand trust, and long-term success.
How do I become an Influencer talent agent FAQs
How much do influencer agents make?
Industry standard is 10-20% of the brand collaborations you negotiate for your clients.
How do I become an influencer talent agent for free?
You can’t. Even if you do nothing to financially invest in yourself (which I do NOT recommend), time is money. It takes a lot of time and financial investment either in traditional educational programs, online ones or small group coaching programs to build a career. Becoming an influencer talent agent is no different.
Do you need an Influencer manager or agent?
I think you need one when your inbox is overflowing with paid, quality opportunities and you’re missing out because you’re already focused on current projects. You do NOT need an agent when you’re just getting going and haven’t established yourself as a social media influencer. I look for my clients to have already earned $100k in the past 12 months. Want to learn more? I wrote this article about how to become a full time influencer.
What does an Influencer talent manager do?
Honestly, a lot! Way more than you’d think or expect. Aside from negotiation and staying connected to agencies who hire talent, we do a lot of cheerleading and being a therapist for our clients. In fact, I wrote this article “What does an Influencer talent manager do?”
How many followers do you need to be an influencer?
Great question and one that can definitely have a much longer answer than I’m sharing here. I wrote this article for you “how many followers do you need to be an influencer” if you want a longer read on it. For paid brand partnerships, I’d say aim for 10,000 followers across one social media platform. Can you have paid opportunities with less? But if you’re asking me to pick a number, that’s my #.